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Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:54 pm
by Dave
Bane did break Batman. Batman did fuck up with Brother Eye. Batman did admit that Nightwing had to do a lot of the face work because Batman "done fucked up".

With that said, yeah. Batman just doesn't seem "human" at times. Probably why I liked Year One and Batman Begins so much... he fucks up, just like humans tend to.

BTW: I loves me my Sonic the Hedgehog by Archie Comics. If nothing else, keep this in mind: me wanting to recreate them pretty pictures is probably one of the stronger reasons why I decided to take pen in hand and produce the pretty pictures I do now ;)

[edit: I'm a fan of the Batman. I realized I didn't point that out in this post ;) ]

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:53 pm
by Karazorel
Mike wrote:So saying it's a cop out is silly... That's just picking a fight. :P

Ok good, so I'm wasn't the only one who felt like that.

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:22 am
by David Yun
Well, yeah, I'm picking a fight, because it is a cop out. It's a way to end any discussion without any meaningful communication. Subjectivity is bullshit; it only exists in our perceptions because we're flawed. Having said that, I fully admit I'm most likely wrong about a bazillion different things (because I'm flawed). I like to keep an open mind, and challenge others' points of view, so that if they're more right than me, I can adjust my own stance to theirs. I dig comics and I'd hate to miss out on anything worthwhile, so I was asking what made Supergirl good. In essence, I'm asking you to back up why it's your "cup of tea". I most definitely believe in Platonic ideals, and we need to strive toward objectively assessing and understanding things, especially those things that are important to us. The contemporary aesthetic of just giving up and saying everything is relative and everyone's "opinion" is right, just ensures that everyone is wrong and that we don't connect with each other.

Back to Supergirl, from what I could see, those themes of self-discovery and a sense of belonging are the same trite and hackneyed concepts that wore thin on Superman fifty years ago. Of course, that doesn't mean it's bad; it just requires telling that story in a fresh and interesting way. You can be "groundbreaking" by recycling old material: just check out the current Battlestar Galacatica show. But Loeb has been dialing hackneyed scripts in for several years now. All that I noticed of value in Supergirl was that these themes were more interesting because they were wrapped around a hottie blonde who flies around in a microskirt and belly T. So like I've been saying, I didn't give it much of a chance, so I was pressing you, Kara, to elaborate to give me a better idea of whether or not I should drop another $3 every month. There's just so much good stuff out there, and only so much time to check it all out. Is Supergirl worth it, and why?

Like Steve said, it's okay to disagree. But in that case, we should discuss our viewpoints, and if we can't come to common ground, we should agree to disagree. What we shouldn't do is simply chalk them up as opinions, and equally valid. If two people disagree, logically, one or both of them are wrong.

If I took an antagonistic tone, it's because yeah, it didn't look like it would be substantively good. I'm just wondering from your handle if you're a fangirl, and thus biased. Because that's okay too. I've been buying every single issue of Amazing Spider-Man for decades, whether or not it was great or a steaming pile, and I'd fight anyone who badmouthed the wallcrawler.

As for pink sweaters? I (probably) wouldn't wear one, but the right one on a good looking damsel? That's most definitely good.

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:30 am
by David Yun
Oh yeah, Batman...

There are really two Batmans: the Gotham City one, and the JLA one. Gotham Batman is more human and not as situationally invincible, because his foes are merely human. If this is what you prefer, check out Paul Dini's current run on Detective Comics. This is the dude who wrote the best episodes of the Batman Animated Series.

JLA Batman was introduced by Grant Morrison. This is the guy who has to take on world ending threats, like White Martians, that are effectively infinitely more physically powerful than him. In order to hang, he's got to be Sherlock Holmes, Bruce Lee, Napoleon, and Bruce Jenner squared wrapped up in one person. I understand what you're saying about this dehumanizing him, because he's so effin' amazing, but I like that we have a human, trained to penultimate perfection, that can hang with these cheaters with alien powers and magic rings.

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:43 am
by Yino
@Steve: That's why there is fan-made stuff :D . remember this: Batman v/s Alien v/s Predator

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:13 am
by trebuchet
Dee does have a valid point. When you look at a piece of fine art or listen to a piece of music or read a book, you make a judgment on it based on your own flawed knowledge and life experiences. No one is saying that your judgment has to be perfect - that's absurd for the very fact that we are flawed beings. That does not, however, preclude us from making those judgments because that is precisely the way we add to our store of knowledge and experiences. If we all went around singing the theme song to Different Strokes at each other whenever we come to a disagreement on something, how are we to ever grow from that experience? That's bullshit. State an opinion and be prepared to back it up with your arguments or don't even make them at all.

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:59 am
by MadCat
You want to talk about creepy sexual fetishization? Check out this news. I haven't been keeping current on my mainstream comics for some time now, but this really pissed me off.

I'm not trying to be all feminist "ZOMG double standards" here, like the article seems to be (though I still think the writer is a creepy sick bastard for killing her that way), but It bugs me that Batman would let anyone who worked beside him go completely unremembered and unremarked, given how deeply protective he is of his charges and how deeply he mourns when someone he cares about is killed. Why no commemoration of her death? :P

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:05 pm
by David Yun
Yeah, BOO comics. Specifically DC. Stephanie Brown was a cool character, with several years worth of pretty decent character development, only to be sacrificed at the altar of "drama" (sales). I don't think it's a result of purposeful misogyny, but that site you linked, Madcat, definitely has a point. Oh, and she's underaged as well. Also, let's not forget Sue Dibney's rape, the event that was the lynchpin that kicked off the recent wave of "Crisis" stuff. Or the humiliation and beating that Wonder Woman and the Amazons took in "Trinity". Or Kyle Rayner's girlfriend murdered and stuffed into a refrigerator. On and on. WTF is up with DC's women hating?

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:53 pm
by steve
didn't Willingham write War Drums?

so recap, cuz i feel i should be corrected. it's ok to disagree about liking/disliking something but we shouldn't be afraid to define and logically state why we appreciate/hate it. these "arguments" build character or something.

call me crazy but this sounds like something that happens in forum threads everyday.

Re: YAY Comics

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:00 am
by MadCat
Ugh, mentioning the refrigerator incident reminded me of a site I saw a long time ago that did a much better job of detailing mainstream comics' misogyny than I ever could.

I find the title amusing in a sick, disturbing kind of way.

A quote from "Fan Gail Simone Responds" under "Reactions" on that site:

"In any case, having a uterus myself, I found that I most enjoyed reading about the girl heroes, or Superchicks. And it had been nagging me for a while that in mainstream comics, being a girl superhero meant inevitably being killed, maimed or depowered, it seemed.
So, really for my own edification and with malice towards none, I started making a list of the superchicks who had gone down in one of those ways (ignoring for the moment the wives/girlfriends of superheroes - a whole 'nother problem). I'm not hugely up on continuity issues, and I'm not a Marvel scholar by any means, so the first list had lots of errors and notable omissions. But as I said, it had just been me doodling, essentially. When I realized that it was actually harder to list major female heroes who HADN'T been sliced up somehow, I felt that I might be on to something a bit ... well, creepy. "

and further down in her discussion:

"The male characters seem to die nobly, as heroes, most often, whereas it's not uncommon, as in Katma Tui's case, for a male character to just come home and find her butchered in the kitchen. There are exceptions for both sexes, of course, but shock value seems to be a major motivator in the superchick deaths more often than not."

I'd say this was definitely the case with Spoiler's death, and it reveals a very sad trend in comics.